archaeology! MIDI keyboard with joystick interface?

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2019-10-24 22:54:55 UTC

(I'm using Windows 7, but have included the other two 'groups for
reasons that will become evident!)

I was explaining about MIDI (musical) keyboards to a friend, when I
remembered I had one, that I'd hardly used. I dug it out - it's still in
its box, even with its original plastic bag - 3 octaves, mini size keys.
"evolution MUSIC WIZARD".

However: it has a 15-pin male connector on the end of a lead coming out
of it!

Looking into things, it would appear that that originally connected to
the joystick port on a soundcard.

I've had a look around, and I can't find anything to connect this to
USB. I've found gameport to MIDI - those seem to consist of four
connectors: a male 15 way and a female 15 way, and two five-pin male DIN
plugs (the sort that was originally used for [mostly Philips] audio
equipment in the 1970s, and early PC keyboards). I _think_ these are
just passive cables - no electronics. I've also found USB to MIDI -
these I think _do_ have electronics in them; they mostly also end in two
male DIN plugs (the electronics in a little lump in the cable), but one
or two are a little box with a couple of female DIN sockets.

If I have to go that way, can I talk to it by using one of each of these
- or, does anyone know of a single adapter (that has 15-way female to
USB)?

Looking at the excellent http://www.hardwarebook.info/, it looks as if
MIDI (http://www.hardwarebook.info/MIDI) is just two wires - a current
source and a current sink - plus a shield.
http://www.hardwarebook.info/PC_Gameport_with_MIDI seems to support
that.

And before anyone says - yes, I know I could probably get a second-hand
USB MIDI keyboard for less than the price of the two adapters! But I
like a challenge.

And, whether I get the old keyboard working or buy a new [or
second-hand] one, (a) will I need drivers for a MIDI keyboard, or does
Windows 7 know about such things intrinsically, and (b) any suggestions
for good free MIDI editing/recording software? I rather suspect the
software that's with the keyboard won't work with Windows 7, as it says
I need at least Windows 3.1 (-:

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

... and how lovely, warm, funny, and just all-round Victoria Woodish she was.
- Richard Osman on Victoria Wood, RT 2017/4/8-14

Paul

2019-10-24 23:39:04 UTC

Permalink

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(I'm using Windows 7, but have included the other two 'groups for
reasons that will become evident!)
I was explaining about MIDI (musical) keyboards to a friend, when I
remembered I had one, that I'd hardly used. I dug it out - it's still in
its box, even with its original plastic bag - 3 octaves, mini size keys.
"evolution MUSIC WIZARD".
However: it has a 15-pin male connector on the end of a lead coming out
of it!
Looking into things, it would appear that that originally connected to
the joystick port on a soundcard.
I've had a look around, and I can't find anything to connect this to
USB. I've found gameport to MIDI - those seem to consist of four
connectors: a male 15 way and a female 15 way, and two five-pin male DIN
plugs (the sort that was originally used for [mostly Philips] audio
equipment in the 1970s, and early PC keyboards). I _think_ these are
just passive cables - no electronics. I've also found USB to MIDI -
these I think _do_ have electronics in them; they mostly also end in two
male DIN plugs (the electronics in a little lump in the cable), but one
or two are a little box with a couple of female DIN sockets.
If I have to go that way, can I talk to it by using one of each of these
- or, does anyone know of a single adapter (that has 15-way female to USB)?
Looking at the excellent http://www.hardwarebook.info/, it looks as if
MIDI (http://www.hardwarebook.info/MIDI) is just two wires - a current
source and a current sink - plus a shield.
http://www.hardwarebook.info/PC_Gameport_with_MIDI seems to support that.
And before anyone says - yes, I know I could probably get a second-hand
USB MIDI keyboard for less than the price of the two adapters! But I
like a challenge.
And, whether I get the old keyboard working or buy a new [or
second-hand] one, (a) will I need drivers for a MIDI keyboard, or does
Windows 7 know about such things intrinsically, and (b) any suggestions
for good free MIDI editing/recording software? I rather suspect the
software that's with the keyboard won't work with Windows 7, as it says

This shows an example of buffering (with the 74LS00 uses as a driver to
drive the 220 ohm resistor). And there is an optoisolator on the Midi-In
side. Implying that perhaps someone is concerned about ground differences
in the equipment, eroding the TTL noise margins if the opto wasn't there.

http://midi.teragonaudio.com/hardware/pc_intfc.htm

In this example, they show a TTL-level serial port running at 31250 bps.

https://www.compuphase.com/electronics/midi_rs232.htm

So a USB to serial port, with the level shifter removed, would
be base materials. You can get USB to TX/RX/GND for wiring up
to smartphones, as an example. The article warns though, that
not all serial ports can be programmed for 31250. Maybe 38400
would be the closest baud rate. They mention some FTDI chip
as being a candidate. You would then search Ebay for a serial
port with TTL levels, based on that FTDI chip. Such an adapter
comes with a cable, with three wires with the ends stripped,
for "soldering to circuits". Typically, people use such adapters
for tapping into the serial port on a router board, or the serial
port on a hard drive controller board (pins on the outside, in
the jumper block, do serial!).

The remaining part then would be, how do you convince a serial
driver, to be adopted as MIDI I/O. Not a clue...

At least you're going to have a hobby... or a research project...

Paul

2019-10-25 00:43:43 UTC

Permalink

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(I'm using Windows 7, but have included the other two 'groups for
reasons that will become evident!)
I was explaining about MIDI (musical) keyboards to a friend, when I
remembered I had one, that I'd hardly used. I dug it out - it's still
in its box, even with its original plastic bag - 3 octaves, mini size
keys. "evolution MUSIC WIZARD".
However: it has a 15-pin male connector on the end of a lead coming
out of it!
Looking into things, it would appear that that originally connected
to the joystick port on a soundcard.
I've had a look around, and I can't find anything to connect this to
USB. I've found gameport to MIDI - those seem to consist of four
connectors: a male 15 way and a female 15 way, and two five-pin male
DIN plugs (the sort that was originally used for [mostly Philips]
audio equipment in the 1970s, and early PC keyboards). I think these
are just passive cables - no electronics. I've also found USB to MIDI
- these I think do have electronics in them; they mostly also end in
two male DIN plugs (the electronics in a little lump in the cable),
but one or two are a little box with a couple of female DIN sockets.
If I have to go that way, can I talk to it by using one of each of
these - or, does anyone know of a single adapter (that has 15-way
female to USB)?
Looking at the excellent http://www.hardwarebook.info/, it looks as
if MIDI (http://www.hardwarebook.info/MIDI) is just two wires - a
current source and a current sink - plus a shield.
http://www.hardwarebook.info/PC_Gameport_with_MIDI seems to support
that.
And before anyone says - yes, I know I could probably get a
second-hand USB MIDI keyboard for less than the price of the two
adapters! But I like a challenge.
And, whether I get the old keyboard working or buy a new [or
second-hand] one, (a) will I need drivers for a MIDI keyboard, or
does Windows 7 know about such things intrinsically, and (b) any
suggestions for good free MIDI editing/recording software? I rather
suspect the software that's with the keyboard won't work with Windows

J.P.,

Would this work?

https://www.amazon.com/ECS-Game-Port-USB-Adapter/dp/B00W8HBHMS/ref=sr_1_
3?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwumwo5a25QIVCINaBR1fUQ6UEAAYASAAEgLCVvD_BwE&hvadid=2
67941478646&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001907&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1
7136028370566942027&hvtargid=kwd-337892880655&hydadcr=19162_9664533&keyw
ords=15+pin+joystick+to+usb+adapter&qid=1571964068&sr=8-3

JT

--

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2019-10-25 02:31:13 UTC

Permalink

Post by JT

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(I'm using Windows 7, but have included the other two 'groups for
reasons that will become evident!)

[]

Post by JT

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Looking into things, it would appear that that originally connected
to the joystick port on a soundcard.

[]

Post by JT

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
If I have to go that way, can I talk to it by using one of each of
these - or, does anyone know of a single adapter (that has 15-way
female to USB)?
Looking at the excellent http://www.hardwarebook.info/, it looks as
if MIDI (http://www.hardwarebook.info/MIDI) is just two wires - a
current source and a current sink - plus a shield.
http://www.hardwarebook.info/PC_Gameport_with_MIDI seems to support
that.

[]

Post by JT
J.P.,
Would this work?
https://www.amazon.com/ECS-Game-Port-USB-Adapter/dp/B00W8HBHMS/ref=sr_1_
3?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwumwo5a25QIVCINaBR1fUQ6UEAAYASAAEgLCVvD_BwE&hvadid=2
67941478646&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001907&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1
7136028370566942027&hvtargid=kwd-337892880655&hydadcr=19162_9664533&keyw
ords=15+pin+joystick+to+usb+adapter&qid=1571964068&sr=8-3
JT

(Only the first line was highlighted as a link in my newsreader, but it
worked anyway.)

Thanks, but as there's no mention of MIDI in the listing, I fear that
may be http://www.hardwarebook.info/PC_Gameport rather than
http://www.hardwarebook.info/PC_Gameport_with_MIDI (you'll see pins 12
and 15 are different on the two).

I rather fear I'd need Paul's circuitry. Which may be what's in some of
the boxes I've seen that have DIN sockets, which I'd then use with one
of the passive adapter cables (or make that myself).

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I don't like that word [atheist]; it implies that there's a god not to believe
in - Eric Idle, quoted in RT 2016/12/10-16

Roger Mills

2019-10-26 19:12:37 UTC

Permalink

I assume that the keyboard itself has the usual two 5-pin 180 degree DIN
sockets, and that the cable which you have has two DIN plugs at one end
and and a 15-pin D connector at the other end?

If so, throw that cable away and get one of these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/USB-MIDI-Cable-DigitalLife-Out/dp/B07TNFDH5L/ref=asc_df_B07TNFDH5L/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=375410469487&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3721761605041043990&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007064&hvtargid=pla-794854502288&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=76811915917&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=375410469487&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3721761605041043990&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007064&hvtargid=pla-794854502288

It's Plug-n-Play and will load the necessary drivers automatically when
you plug it in.

You then just need some MIDI sequencing software. I'm still using an old
version of Cakewalk Express which was certainly written for an earlier
version of Windows - but works perfectly happily on W7 (32-bit or
64-bit) [So it must be a 32-bit rather than 16-bit application, probably
dating from W95 or 98, but not W3.1]

If you send me a PM, I can probably fix you up with a copy.

--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

Paul

2019-10-26 19:24:26 UTC

Permalink

Post by Roger Mills

I assume that the keyboard itself has the usual two 5-pin 180 degree DIN
sockets, and that the cable which you have has two DIN plugs at one end
and and a 15-pin D connector at the other end?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/USB-MIDI-Cable-DigitalLife-Out/dp/B07TNFDH5L/ref=asc_df_B07TNFDH5L/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=375410469487&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3721761605041043990&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007064&hvtargid=pla-794854502288&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=76811915917&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=375410469487&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3721761605041043990&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007064&hvtargid=pla-794854502288
It's Plug-n-Play and will load the necessary drivers automatically when
you plug it in.
You then just need some MIDI sequencing software. I'm still using an old
version of Cakewalk Express which was certainly written for an earlier
version of Windows - but works perfectly happily on W7 (32-bit or
64-bit) [So it must be a 32-bit rather than 16-bit application, probably
dating from W95 or 98, but not W3.1]
If you send me a PM, I can probably fix you up with a copy.

And there is a Class codepoint for MIDI on USB.

https://usb.org/sites/default/files/midi10.pdf

Which makes it easier for an in-box driver to work with
such an adapter. On something like Win98 of course,
YMMV, as there wouldn't be the wealth of Class drivers
at that point, that there are today.

Paul

Roger Mills

2019-10-26 20:03:56 UTC

Permalink

Post by Paul

Post by Roger Mills

I assume that the keyboard itself has the usual two 5-pin 180 degree
DIN sockets, and that the cable which you have has two DIN plugs at
one end and and a 15-pin D connector at the other end?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/USB-MIDI-Cable-DigitalLife-Out/dp/B07TNFDH5L/ref=asc_df_B07TNFDH5L/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=375410469487&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3721761605041043990&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007064&hvtargid=pla-794854502288&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=76811915917&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=375410469487&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3721761605041043990&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007064&hvtargid=pla-794854502288
It's Plug-n-Play and will load the necessary drivers automatically
when you plug it in.
You then just need some MIDI sequencing software. I'm still using an
old version of Cakewalk Express which was certainly written for an
earlier version of Windows - but works perfectly happily on W7 (32-bit
or 64-bit) [So it must be a 32-bit rather than 16-bit application,
probably dating from W95 or 98, but not W3.1]
If you send me a PM, I can probably fix you up with a copy.

And there is a Class codepoint for MIDI on USB.
https://usb.org/sites/default/files/midi10.pdf
Which makes it easier for an in-box driver to work with
such an adapter. On something like Win98 of course,
YMMV, as there wouldn't be the wealth of Class drivers
at that point, that there are today.
Paul

Indeed. I've got about 3 of these USB to MIDI adapters (not identical to
the one I cited, but which do the same job). I bought the first one in
Win XP times - and that came with a CD with the necessary drivers on it
(AND some MIDI sequencing software). The more recent ones have been
Plug-n-Play, and haven't needed external drivers.

--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

Roger Mills

2019-10-26 20:15:08 UTC

Permalink

Post by Roger Mills

Post by Paul

Post by Roger Mills

I assume that the keyboard itself has the usual two 5-pin 180 degree
DIN sockets, and that the cable which you have has two DIN plugs at
one end and and a 15-pin D connector at the other end?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/USB-MIDI-Cable-DigitalLife-Out/dp/B07TNFDH5L/ref=asc_df_B07TNFDH5L/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=375410469487&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3721761605041043990&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007064&hvtargid=pla-794854502288&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=76811915917&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=375410469487&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3721761605041043990&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007064&hvtargid=pla-794854502288
It's Plug-n-Play and will load the necessary drivers automatically
when you plug it in.
You then just need some MIDI sequencing software. I'm still using an
old version of Cakewalk Express which was certainly written for an
earlier version of Windows - but works perfectly happily on W7 (32-bit
or 64-bit) [So it must be a 32-bit rather than 16-bit application,
probably dating from W95 or 98, but not W3.1]
If you send me a PM, I can probably fix you up with a copy.

And there is a Class codepoint for MIDI on USB.
https://usb.org/sites/default/files/midi10.pdf
Which makes it easier for an in-box driver to work with
such an adapter. On something like Win98 of course,
YMMV, as there wouldn't be the wealth of Class drivers
at that point, that there are today.
Paul

Here's an even cheaper one than the one I first cited. No reason why
this wouldn't work - it's certainly worth a punt!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-To-MIDI-Interface-Converter-Cable-Adapter-Music-Keyboard-Piano-To-PC-Laptop/372710966766?epid=1542423275&hash=item56c74e05ee:g:7osAAOSwmSNdKIlI

--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2019-10-26 23:25:23 UTC

Permalink

[]
[]

Post by Roger Mills

Post by Roger Mills
I assume that the keyboard itself has the usual two 5-pin 180 degree
DIN sockets, and that the cable which you have has two DIN plugs at
one end and and a 15-pin D connector at the other end?

No. The _only_ connection to the outside world it has is a _captive_
cable (i. e. comes out of the keyboard), with the 15-pin D connector on
the end of it. It does say on the box that it is definitely MIDI.
[]

Post by Roger Mills

Post by Roger Mills
Indeed. I've got about 3 of these USB to MIDI adapters (not identical to
the one I cited, but which do the same job). I bought the first one in
Win XP times - and that came with a CD with the necessary drivers on it
(AND some MIDI sequencing software). The more recent ones have been
Plug-n-Play, and haven't needed external drivers.

Here's an even cheaper one than the one I first cited. No reason why
this wouldn't work - it's certainly worth a punt!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-To-MIDI-Interface-Converter-Cable-Adapter
-Music-Keyboard-Piano-To-PC-Laptop/372710966766?epid=1542423275&hash=ite
m56c74e05ee:g:7osAAOSwmSNdKIlI

There are literally hundreds of those on ebay! (Though they all look
suspiciously similar.)

I have also found ones with _female_ DIN sockets on (like this
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STEINBERG-MIDI-TO-USB-COMPUTER-CONVERTER-IN-OUT-THRU-PORT/283651120473?hash=item420aec9d59:g:ioAAAOSwy~JdrwJr
alias t.ly/d5l3z), and also gameport-to-(male)DIN cables.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Only dirty people need wash

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2019-10-26 23:32:59 UTC

Permalink

In message <***@mid.individual.net>, Roger Mills
<***@gmail.com> writes:
[]

Post by Roger Mills
You then just need some MIDI sequencing software. I'm still using an
old version of Cakewalk Express which was certainly written for an
earlier version of Windows - but works perfectly happily on W7 (32-bit
or 64-bit) [So it must be a 32-bit rather than 16-bit application,
probably dating from W95 or 98, but not W3.1]
If you send me a PM, I can probably fix you up with a copy.

...

Post by Roger Mills
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom

checked.
I've sent an email - hope that counts as a PM (-:

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Only dirty people need wash

Roger Mills

2019-10-27 11:09:56 UTC

Permalink

Post by Roger Mills
[]

...

Post by Roger Mills
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom

checked.

I've replied to your email - but I did that *before* I saw your previous
post about the captive cable, so some of it may not apply!

--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.